Withdrew money from my account electronically.
Complaint
Leslie Townsend
Country: United States
The Consumer Law Group withdrew $360 from my bank account electronically
without a written contract to reduce my credit card debt.
without a written contract to reduce my credit card debt.
Comments
All they need is your account number, and since they claim to be "reviewing your accounts" to make an offer on what they can do for you, they have a pretext for getting several of your account numbers.
No one checks any "recording" before they take your money, and with fraudulent telemarketers, they may even doctor the recordings. To take the money, they don't submit some "recording" to a payment processor, just the account number and the amount they allege you authorized.
Deceptive and illegal, but nothing physically prevents them from doing it once they get your account number.
The fraudulent nature of the whole scam is revealed in the many complaints that report they were awaiting paperwork to review before deciding whether to proceed, yet charges appeared even though they had not decided to proceed. When disputed, complaints report threats and references to terms in the "contract" that had not actually been signed and returned.
This is a common and easily recognized pattern in such frauds: mix up the normal order of agreeing to a contract, offer, acceptance, and consideration. Instead, such scams obtain account information up front ahead of disclosing the full terms later alleged to be agreed to, then using it to make charges while claiming that those charges were "authorized" and indicate that the consumer had actually "agreed" to the terms only disclosed later.
This pattern, common not only in "interest reduction" scams, but also in "free trial, negative option" scams, use some excuse for the consumer to disclose their account information ahead of, or without, disclosure of critical terms of the "offer", such as total cost, cancellation terms, etc.
"Reviewing your accounts" works as well as "what's your account, for only shipping and handling".
The smoking gun is that the charges are made before the consumer has received the written offer terms, which are generally not fully disclosed in the phone pitch, and they are made even when the consumer has not reviewed and contacted the scammer to agree to go ahead. The consumer has been placated that he will be able to review the terms, as part of getting him to drop his guard and disclose account information.
The "contract", as is common, may even contains language that it supercedes any verbal representations, in which case it is clear that without separate specific authorization by the consumer, there IS NO AGREEMENT, AND THEREFORE CAN BE NO "AUTHORIZATION".
It's basically a phishing scam, or "bait and switch" AFTER getting account information.
http://ncdoj.gov/getdoc/45fb2d1d-b63e-4045-b6 ... -Complaint.aspx
Let me inform you all that "The Consumer Law Group" is a partial law firm. The Consumer Law Group uses multiple enrollment agencies to get clients for the actual law office. There are about 10-15 other agencies that set up contact information either in the telephone book or on the internet so when you call they address themselves as enrollment agents for the law group. These are the people you first talk to when you call in, they enroll new clientele into Consumer Law Group programs, they are located all over the country. The first person you talk to is commonly referred to is a credit counselor or a sales representative, they explain how the program works and how the "Consumer Law Group" will perform in helping resolve your debt. These agencies also can enroll for other companies debt programs as well, so if one program doesn't suit your needs they might have agreements with another company to help with your bills. If you have all of your creditors information they can do some kind of free consult for you to see what monthly payments and debt can be reduced. If you are satisfied and would like to proceed they will then take all of your information and I assume will put it in a data bank that is networked with all parts of The Consumer Law Group (a lead system). Your full name, phone number, social security number and address will be taken. I'm sure after all the information has been entered in their system they would do some kind of verbal recording and assure you this is for your security. Common sense shows it's a weak way to back what they had explained to you just incase they have any legal issues with you. It would make sense if the recording stated the fee they would charge for the service, monthly payments and any other crucial information that would prove everything to be sensible beyond a reasonable doubt if taken to court. Recently (Again if you have been doing your research kiddies) Attorney Generals in many states have been enforcing strict laws on up and coming and current credit counseling agencies since there have been more than an overwhelming amount of complaints(This I will not go into detail about to much to type, look it up yourselves). After the recording is done your representative will introduce you to a new representative at a "new department" maybe referred to as a legal assistant or some kind of verifier. The quicker your first representative can get you on and off the phone the sooner they can take a new call. The new call is a new sale which potentially creates a greater commission for the representative and more money for the company. Your new representative will more than likely review what you and your previous representative have came to an agreement on. If you are satisfied and have no complaints they send you out your paperwork I’m assuming by mail, fax or email and you are all done! If you think the information your new representative reviewed with you didn't match what your previous representative had explained to you at that point you will be directed back to your original sales representative so they can re explain. Folks, these are people who are trying to sell you a program, people who work on commission. These are people who are very good with their words. Now let me explain a few new things to you. Allot of credit counseling agencies work for law firms and many law firms provide what’s known as "debt reduction". Debt reduction is where you owe "x" amount of dollars; for example $100,000 and out of that they say they can have you pay back a fraction of what you owe! Some say they can reduce your debt by %50, some by %30, I’ve talked to some that said %5 percent. There is no consistency for one simple reason; Your creditors don't have to agree to reduce your debt at all! They are not legally bound to reduce anyone’s debt. So now you are paying thousands of dollars for a service that isn't even guaranteed to work; Ask your counselor "Can you guarantee to reduce my debt to the percentage you had persuaded me you could?" they will say no. Then, take it one step further and ask "Well how can you quote me a monthly payment?". Another important fact about these programs is that the monthly payments you are making do not go to your creditors. Yes, you are making a monthly payment but it goes into some kind of FDIC Insured account while the law office is negotiating with your creditors in hopes for a reduced pay off amount on each of your bills. If a creditor eventually agrees to reduce the amount of debt you owe, only at that time in a lump sum of money will they accept that settlement. On the contrary if the creditor does not agree to any reduction of your balances over an extended period of time they have the right to sue you for that bill. Here's the problem with settlement programs; Since your creditors don't get a monthly payment and your money is being deposited into an FDIC Insured account it doesn't protect you from being sued, even if you're working with a law firm. If you start to miss monthly payments on your own or with a credit counseling agency you will still be pursued by collection agencies; This typically happens after you have missed more than 5 or 6 monthly payments. If a creditor pursues legal action you will have to appear in court and there will be a demand to pay the money you owe them. If you fail to meet that demand or you can't pay they will do one of the following; Garnish your wages, Put liens on property you own or have a tax lien put on next years reported wages. The creditor can also add the attorney fees onto your existing unpaid bill making the balance skyrocket. If you and counsel agree on a court appointed payment that is good. However, If you miss that payment one month, you have violated a court appointed demand, you have broken the law and you can be arrested and put in jail. I know this sounds far fetched but it does happen allot. More and more people are being mislead as to how this program works. It's a very simple science, you need to do your research before buying your product. Being educated deters any quick talking sales man or woman from over glorifying an under ranged product that’s bound to cause your future any discomfort. In sales, the less you, the buyer knows, the more of an edge it gives the representative. With that said, more knowledge, more power.
Your "one long paragraph" replies show up several times on this site, as well as other sites, always connected to "Consumer Law Group". We may assume, therefore, that it is likely you work for them. We may also assume that whatever you claim to know is what you have been told. We can also assume from what you disclose that your experience is limited to working in their call center.
You apparently believe all this, how it is supposed to be, what the "counselors" are supposed to say, etc., but numerous consumer complaints are painting a different picture. That same picture is supported by the allegations in the recent North Carolina lawsuit, which also includes references to the terms of agreements, incorporation papers, and dollar amounts collected and paid out to creditors, to back up its claims.
http://ncdoj.gov/getdoc/45fb2d1d-b63e-4045-b6 ... -Complaint.aspx
"Let me inform you all that "The Consumer Law Group" is a partial law firm."
What is a "partial law firm"? You are either a law firm, or you are not. Your employees are either acting under the direction of a licensed attorney, in compliance with the accepted practices expected of a law firm, or they are not. They are either complying with law, or they are not.
Clearly, you want consumers to believe you are a law firm, and that they are being represented by licensed attorneys.
According to the NC AG complaint, you are not a law firm, and you do not provide legal representation to individuals. However, according to the complaint, your solicitation to a NC attorney indicated you only wanted about 3 hours of work a year, limited to signing NC client agreements, at about $1000 per year.
This would have created the appearance NC consumers were being represented by a licensed NC attorney, when this NC attorney had no involvement other than signing agreements with NC residents.
Another allegation in the lawsuit is that the companies had multiple listings in NC to create the appearance that they a local non-profit credit counselor, while they had no actual presence in NC, and didn't actually counsel anyone there.
One of the key allegations in the lawsuit was that very little of the money paid by NC residents to Consumer Law Group actually went to paying off creditors. Only $200,000 out of $1,600,000 collected from consumers was paid out to creditors. The rest appeared to be shuffled through the call center lead generator and a "non-profit" entity, before ending up going to expenses or into owners' pockets. The NC lawsuit alleges that the high up front fees charged were in violation of NC law.
"As far as acceptance and concideration your just using these words to fill a void where there should have been bulk in your sentence. We all realized that after the one thing you were contradicting was justifed in later sentences, "the normal order of agreeing "(ex:the normal order of agreeing to a contract, offer, acceptance, and consideration). "
You make fun of the commonly accepted elements required to form a contract: offer, acceptance, consideration. These are not just "words to fill a void". There is also a key 4th one, legal intention.
The "offer" is the disclosure of the terms by the seller. The buyer hasn't agreed to terms disclosed AFTER alleged agreement is reached. This is a common way in which fraudulent telemarketers deceptively claim consumers have agreed to something, basically by "disclosing" it later and claiming the consumer had agreed to it.
"Acceptance" is the buyer's agreement to the offer. In telemarketing, fraudulent or otherwise, although this is often "documented" by recording, it is easy to deceptively record by leaving off of the recording an earlier different offer then subtly modifying the recorded "offer" script, reading it fast. This is probably the most common way in which recorded "agreements" are fabricated, although doctored recordings are not uncommon.
"Consideration" indicates that there is something of value to be provided. For example, I might "agree" to give you something, maybe my car, for nothing at all. Very generous, but we don't have a contract, and I might change my mind. There was no consideration, since you offered nothing of value in exchange.
Fraudulent telemarketers often claim that the consumer's "payment" is, in effect, proof of the agreement to the contract, as consideration. With fraud, this is often not actually the case, particularly when the scammer got account information under pretense, either from another source, or through deception from the consumer. Often the "product" claimed to be sold may have no value. The scammer may have no intent to deliver as promised, may not even be capable of delivering.
"Intention to form a contract" is the 4th element. As an example from fraudulent telemarketing, one common scam is to call consumers and tell them they have "won a prize" from their "credit card company". "We just need to verify your card number". You may recognize this as a common phishing scam, but why does it NOT form a contract, particularly if the caller also made some "offer"?
1) no actual agreement.
2) no intent to form a contract, and
3) no consideration (it's a free prize, charges were made fraudulently, not through actual authorization by the consumer, even if the card number was disclosed.)
https://complaintwire.org/Complaint.aspx/2f1RaIDssgD8LAjLuWXOsA
Attempt to assert a "contract" by "recording" with no intent by the consumer to agree to any contract. Then pressured to return a signed contract, which was not returned so there was no contract, yet money was still charged.
"...I told eric that I can look into the program, but Eric told me that I was being recorded. I got another call from them expressing the importance of signing and sending the contract to them. I told them that I'm not interested and today June 12, 2009 they still went ahead and withdrew 349.00 dollars from my account, ..."
Continuing to charge after cancellation:
"...They didn't do anything for me except take my money. I faxed them a letter to cancel the agreement I made with them and they still kept taking money out of my checking account. ..."
Making up undisclosed cancellation terms to avoid refunds:
"...I called and left voice mail message as I couldn't pull up cancellation web site. I was told I had to 9/10/2009 to cancel I canceled on 9/8/2009. I expected a full refund of $720.00 which they withdrawn from my account.I called about my refund and was told I only had $199.00 coming since I didn't give them three days before the 10th of sept, no where in the contract does it state anything about 3 days before the 10th. ..."
"...I faxed a letter to have them cancel the agreement and stop taking money out of my checking account, but they have continued to do so. I will be closing my checking account out to stop them from taking any more money from me..."
"...I had no idea half of what I paid a month was going to go in their pockets, not only that, not one creditor has been contacted, & my husband has received a summons to go to court. ..."
Recorded "bait and switch", first claiming money would be going to creditors, but changing that during the recording. Use of threats to sue to coerce "agreement" and further payments, fraudulently representing deceptive recording.
https://complaintwire.org/Complaint.aspx/3pLDJCRrmABisAjKTRM8hg
"...
THE FIRST TIME THEY TOLD ME IT WOULD APPLY TO MY CREDITORS BUT WHEN THEY CONVINCED ME TO RECORD MY VOICE THAN THEY SAID IT WAS ONLY A FEE FOR THE CONSULTATION!!!
...
she has been harrasing me telling that i have to pay this amount or else! and that they can take me to court becaues they have my voice accepting!! ! unfortunally i gave many personal information!!
..."
Deceptively failed to disclose that the first 16 payments went to their own "fees".
"... I blow a head gasket at this point and ask (or shall I say scream) what the hell are you talking about you guys have been taking $365.00 a month out of my checking account for the past 14 months. She then tells me that the first 16 payments go towards my fees the 17th payment goes into my settlement account to pay creditors. So here I sit out of $5100 having paid my creditors one red cent for the past 14 months but yet Consumer law group hasn't paid them or talked to them either. Now I am being sued and If I want to get it settled before going to court I have to s**t x amount of dollars. ..."