RPM trying to collect a fake debt
Complaint
JP
Country: United States
On 4 Apr 08 I got a call from Receivables Performance Management (RPM) claiming that I owe $85 on a Verizon account from 2000. I know that I’ve never had a Verizon account, and that my phone account from 2000 (I forget which company) was paid properly. So I told the RPM rep that they were full of s**t, and that I wanted written proof that this debt is actually mine. They had the last 4 of my SSN and tried to pass that off as “proof” that their info was legitimate. I still didn’t fall for it and asked for everything in writing.
Fortunately I have records that go back that far. I also called Verizon to confirm that they don’t have any account information with my name on it. Surprisingly they have no record of me ever having an account with them. I then went online to find out if RPM is some sort of scam. They are a “legitimate” company, yet seem to be practicing what I would describe as predatory debt collection, or legal extortion. Unfortunately, there is not much information on the internet yet about RPM. However, there is a lot of information about AFNI, who seem to be doing the same thing.
So, after I found this web page, and read all of the information about AFNI, I downloaded the FDCPA and FCRA and read them. I’m sending RPM a letter in accordance with the FDCPA. I’m also sending the letter to my state’s AG and the WA state AG. (RPM is located in Bothell WA.) I also checked all of my credit reports to make sure that nothing has been placed on them. I’ll continue to monitor my credit reports very closely for the next few months. As this develops I’ll update this comment.
I’m considering contacting a lawyer to see if what RPM is doing is in any way actually extortion. It’s a crime that the max penalty under FDCPA and FCRA is only $1000 or actual damages. Obviously that small amount isn’t enough of an incentive to keep these companies from violating the law. I’m also going to contact my Congressmen about this. Maybe if enough of us complain the law can get changed?
Oh, and a huge thanks to the poster on this site TJ! His information and advice was invaluable!!
Fortunately I have records that go back that far. I also called Verizon to confirm that they don’t have any account information with my name on it. Surprisingly they have no record of me ever having an account with them. I then went online to find out if RPM is some sort of scam. They are a “legitimate” company, yet seem to be practicing what I would describe as predatory debt collection, or legal extortion. Unfortunately, there is not much information on the internet yet about RPM. However, there is a lot of information about AFNI, who seem to be doing the same thing.
So, after I found this web page, and read all of the information about AFNI, I downloaded the FDCPA and FCRA and read them. I’m sending RPM a letter in accordance with the FDCPA. I’m also sending the letter to my state’s AG and the WA state AG. (RPM is located in Bothell WA.) I also checked all of my credit reports to make sure that nothing has been placed on them. I’ll continue to monitor my credit reports very closely for the next few months. As this develops I’ll update this comment.
I’m considering contacting a lawyer to see if what RPM is doing is in any way actually extortion. It’s a crime that the max penalty under FDCPA and FCRA is only $1000 or actual damages. Obviously that small amount isn’t enough of an incentive to keep these companies from violating the law. I’m also going to contact my Congressmen about this. Maybe if enough of us complain the law can get changed?
Oh, and a huge thanks to the poster on this site TJ! His information and advice was invaluable!!
Comments
Probably 90% of the time you are right. Most of the time, the same small group of people probably have the most delinquent debts, until they grow up, if they ever do. It's what happens when you make a mistake that I have a problem with.
"The thing you dont get is in the FDCPA a collector is not allowed to misrepresent a debt, whether its the amount, charge off dates, they have to tell you about the fee, if they say they will settle for this amount, they have to.. Otherwise is would be a FDCPA violation."
Not allowed to is not the same as doesn't. That is what you are supposed to do, and deception or material misrepresentation would violate FDCPA.
But most of the time, there will be no consequences to such violations, so there are debt collectors who will take "short-cuts", and tell little "half-truths", to "expedite" getting paid by that deadbeat they "know" owes it, who they "know" must be "lying" when they claim they don't.
Impress the debtor by reading them their accounts from their credit report. "Yup, this must be you. Aren't these all your accounts?"
In particular, it's common to misrepresent (lie) about charge-off dates, as that might tip the consumer that the debt can't be reported or is past SOL. Just don't mention it, or when asked, say "a debt can be collected forever", or "accidentally" use the purchase date. (Even the FICO score algorith uses that, if you leave off the original delinquency date.)
"disputes never work"
If true, then you are not in compliance.
"credit one or verizon or whatever, because you got charged a late fee, or interest, or you didnt receive the service, or terminated your contract early.. People always say they talked to the client, and they were suppose to clear it up.. Well guess what they didnt,"
Your clients lie, cheat, and defraud their customers. You help them. Every few years they get sued. Don't brag about it.
Undisclosed "2 year contract extentions" were all the rage a couple years ago, particularly with Sprint and Verizon. Or how about "Yes, you can terminate your contract today with no penalty", followed by bills for the full termination fee several months later, with just a "Sorry, our employee must have made a mistake, but we have no record. Too bad." (If you are going to pull these cons, it helps to do everything by phone, with no documentation provided, just like the magazine scammers do.)
Verizon has a knack for selling off "corrected" billing errors, lumped in with real bad debts.
"you have 30 days to dispute the debt after the notice is received.."
False. Consumer can always dispute. Failure to dispute doesn't make it owed. After 30 days, you just get to "assume" it's owed. So if they don't get your first letter, but they later dispute, what are you going to do, keep "assuming" and ignore the dispute? Tell them they can't dispute? Tell them they now owe it? How does that work, with the prohibition against deception and misrepresenting the status of the debt?
"In general they arent effective"
If by design, no meaningful validation is obtained from the original creditor and forwarded to the alleged debtor, then the "validation" is a deceptive sham. "Moon" or "Chaudhry" affidavits would be an example. So would responding to a "not mine" dispute with no information to actually identify the real debtor, just the same "creditor and amount only" on a computer printout.
"The client has proofs of purchase and all that stuff."
They may or may not, but they are often too lazy to go find it anyway. That's why they sell their junk to you. How badly does Verizon want to go dig out old MCI records from 15 years ago, for some old account they sold to you for $5?
"But BILL collectors dont have a BILL sitting in front of them. There is some info, but it is up to this so called "CONSUMER." to remember his debt... "
No it's not. FDCPA says YOU have to prove it. And when you have contacted the wrong person, they wouldn't "remember" it unless they had mental problems. That is why FDCPA allows consumers to ask for proof of the debt, and why courts allow discovery. The records in front of you cannot be relied upon.
"your a delinquent debtor.."
Keep saying that, but it's not always true.
"75% of america doesnt want to pay there debts, dont care about there credit, and dont intend to pay it.."
Statistically false. You have been watching too much TV. It IS possible that 75% of the people you call don't want to pay you, but that is a very "select" group.
"You keep saying fraud but your the debtor who took the credit or used the services and didnt pay.."
Actually, I've always paid my bills.
I do, however, study deception and fraud in all its forms, and recognize it when I see it.
He told them that. They are ignoring his request to cease calling him.
This is the second most frequent problem reported in connection with this company.
"If they have the wrong number, make sure they remove it, "
How, exactly, is he to "make sure they remove it", when they are the ones NOT REMOVING IT? Clearly "requesting" isn't working.
This is the second most common complaint you have: repeated calls "in error" even though you have been requested to cease calling.
And no, this case has NOTHING TO DO WITH MONEY HE OWES.
What do you have against requesting validation, and then paying by check when it's provided? It documents the payment, and if you come around again a few years later my bank can pull the electronic copy, and I can tell you to go to hell. No business pays it's bills without documentation of what is being paid.
The maximum reporting period, under FCRA is 7 years from charge-off, or at most 7 years from 180 days after the original date of delinquency.
http://www.wargs.com/misc/kathleen.html
YES THE DATA ENTERED IN CORRECTLY. They have your last payment & date on file, then after not paying for 6-8 months they charge it off.. Then the original client (sears, bestbuy, Jcpennys, whatever it is) sells it to a debt buyer, most Credit Card debt is bought by Resurgent Capital services.. The list date tells us what day we got it, and how long we have had it.. These debts have been in other agencies for 2-3 years before we get them.. Its not like you were informed about your debt.. Stop playin games, your know you owe the debt, man up and pay.
The Social Security Number is the biggest one, because they report it to your credit, you can full up an acct with a FULL SSN# too.. We are LOCAL, we are in Washington state, and we are calling for a reason. Stop playing the games, we are licensed and bonded in all 50 states, registered with the BBB, obviously were 110% legit, I cant believe you have to prove this stuff to people. They know they owe the debt, and we have there information.
They check DOB & SSN if people say thats me, A lot of people lie too, how hard is it to say, I never lived there, no, no, thats not my account, I never had ___________, people like to lie to there teeth.
All Collection agencies are going to have complaints, everyone wants to complain about there debt instead of pay, and play some sob story like a collector verbally abused me, and harrassed me, and play a victim. This is some BS, some people will even try to make you violate the FDCPA with 3rd party disclosure, or try to make a law suit.. There is always a greedy person who will sue a legitimate company. Mcdonalds gets sued for hot coffee.. Are you serious. you know its hot, just like you know you owe the bill, so dont give a collector a hard time.
You dont get it.. Its not a con, all the SSN# proves is that we have there information, we are calling for a reason, we know where they live, no average jack has all this info. The thing is if you have a problem with it, check your credit, that doesn't lie. I tell people this all the time, the people who are like well that doesnt mean anything, well check our website, check your credit, look into our company..
Who pays an account thats really not theres? I have got close, I got a $800 payment and they had a different SSN so I had to shred the info, we cant charge you if its the wrong person.
You really are stupid as hell arent you? You really think your smart and know what your talking about huh?
What Im saying is if you are skeptical about it, you cant get refunded by our company if your misinformed about the amounts, or fee, which never happens, because we dont make those mistakes. What im adding is that your bank will refund you if some collection agency you dont know drafts money, but we arent allowed to draft more then we say, or before the day we agree on. We gotta watch out people want to sue and complain all day.
They dont just report things on your credit that you never had.. Unless some has stolen your Identity. And if thats the case we tell them to file a police report and dispute with the credit reporting agencies.. Then again you get some bum who says someone stole my Identity, But it says they paid $50 on the account back in 2008. Who opens an account under someones name then pays on it..
Wow you debtors have the worse excuses and logic. You need to re evaluate yourself TJ, you got every excuse in the book, and there is a better more logical response to all your dumb found thoughts. Do you know how often I get people who claim they paid this debt, then 3 months later they pay it, because they dont have the proof? 99%.
All accounts have the persons name, DOB, SSN, Address, Phone#, Last payment date, charge off date, date it was listed, date we sent a notice.. Some of the accounts depending on the Debt buyer, will give you the credit card #, interest date, last scheduled payment, original amount, interest, whether you had cash advance on your credit card, and interest rates..
Stop playin dumb.. please.. your annoying.
I know what you mean, yeah companies cant pay the fee doing check by phone/credit or debit.. It shows your drafts from account and RPM would be one.. The thing is with settlements, they send out a letter ever 2-3 months from the debt buyer and it has to be completed by a date, if you send it in late it gets applied to your account and not settled out.. Its these people who complain, people who send in $50 checks or money orders a month, who continue to get the calls, and interest because we dont know what date, what amount is coming from one account..
not every debtor can pay there bill in one payment or they wouldnt be there or stop paying it.. There is ways, if you owe a $500 or $1,000 or a decent amount worth sending a bill they can re send it, they can fax it, one of the managers can fax or email you settlement offers. There are ways to get the notice or settlement letter. you just think all debtors are victims, there not.. They are people who scream, yell, swear, and dont want to pay there bills or dont have the money to. I still treat them with respect even tho they dont deserve it!
AAAAnd they do not pay their employees the money they earn in commission to pay off HUGE audit bills they regularly recieve
[***] you guys ill tell everything
Many of the complaints on this and other sites are that you are harassing the wrong people. That implies you use skip-tracing, which frequently contains various errors (Accurint and ChoicePoint warn you of this). That means you are not just sending notice to "where all the bills were going", you must be sending notice to addresses obtained through skip-tracint, or else they could not be arriving at other people's addresses, people who never had accounts with the alleged creditor.
"registered with the BBB, obviously were 110% legit"
Let's take a look at that.
Six months ago (in January 2010) your rating with BBB was "F", and they had a summary of complaints against you that matches this and other sites:
"...
BBB Rating for Receivables Performance Management LLC
Based on BBB files, Receivables Performance Management LLC has a BBB Rating of F on a scale from A+ to F.
Reasons for this rating include:
Number of complaint(s) filed against business that were not resolved.
421 complaints filed against business
Failure to respond to 2 complaints filed against business.
...
Complaints allege constant harassing calls, rude behavior, the business receiving payment from a consumer and it is not applied to the debt owed, the business trying to collect on debts that have been paid in full, the business calling consumers and asking for the wrong people and calls that continue after they have been told they have the wrong number.
...
Marketplace Experience for Receivables Performance Management LLC
When considering complaint information, please take into account the company's size and volume of transactions, and understand that the nature of complaints and a firm's responses to them are often more important than the number of complaints.
BBB processed a total of 421 complaints about Receivables Performance Management LLC in the last 36 months, our standard reporting period. Of the total of 421 complaints closed in 36 months, 109 were closed in the last year.
..."
By April 2010, your rating had jumped to "A-", and the paragraph summarizing consumer complaints had disappeared.
Today, you are still rated "A-", but the complaint summary paragraph has now reappeared, and your complaints within the last year are about the same as it was back in January when you were rated "F" (102 vs. 109), while the nature of complaints against you on this and other sites are essentially the same as then, and consistent with the reappearing BBB summary:
1) Harassing people who claim they don't owe alleged debts and never had an account with the alleged creditor, and
2) Harassing people by phone entirely in error while failing to cease calling them when requested.
"...
BBB Rating for Receivables Performance Management LLC
Based on BBB files, Receivables Performance Management LLC has a BBB Rating of A- on a scale from A+ to F.
Complaints allege constant harassing calls, rude behavior, the business receiving payment from a consumer and it is not applied to the debt owed, the business trying to collect on debts that have been paid in full, the business calling consumers and asking for the wrong people and calls that continue after they have been told they have the wrong number.
...
BBB processed a total of 360 complaints about Receivables Performance Management LLC in the last 36 months, our standard reporting period. Of the total of 360 complaints closed in 36 months, 102 were closed in the last year.
..."
How do you get your BBB rating to jump from "F" to "A-" while you keep getting the same levels of complaints, and for the same illegal acts?
What does that cost?
The people complaining about you aren't the ones who owe an alleged debt. They are the ones you contact in error, about debts they don't owe, to creditors they never did business with, and then you tell them they can't dispute with a variety of excuses.
"A lot of people lie too, how hard is it to say, I never lived there, no, no, thats not my account,"
People you contact by "mistake" will tell you the same, but they aren't lying.
"All Collection agencies are going to have complaints, everyone wants to complain about there debt instead of pay, and play some sob story like a collector verbally abused me, and harrassed me, and play a victim. "
This is a common excuse made by debt collectors with high levels of complaints, usually junk debt buyers. The ones with low complaint levels don't have to use it.
"some people will even try to make you violate the FDCPA with 3rd party disclosure, or try to make a law suit.. There is always a greedy person who will sue a legitimate company."
Some debt collectors routinely engage in third party disclosure.
Following the law is the price we all pay to live in a civilized society. Suing you is the remedy that the law allows. Greed has nothing to do with it. If you asked the people who sue you, would they rather you hadn't harassed them, or do they prefer to have been harassed so they could sue you, most would choose the former. FDCPA and FCRA/FACTA were passed due to problems your industry created.
"Its not a con, all the SSN# proves is that we have there information, we are calling for a reason, we know where they live, no average jack has all this info. "
Yet criminals in India and Pakistan have it, and are getting access to current credit info, not just old records. The CRAs have such wonderful security. At least that's what they tell the public.
"The thing is if you have a problem with it, check your credit, that doesn't lie. "
A number of studies have found that most credit reports have errors, many substantial.
"Who pays an account thats really not theres? I have got close, I got a $800 payment and they had a different SSN so I had to shred the info, we cant charge you if its the wrong person."
Some of your peers might not be so honest. But how did it get so far that you actually got a check before noticing the SSN was wrong? Did you discourage their attempt to dispute, telling them they had no right to dispute?
Plenty of people pay accounts that aren't theirs. If they are closing on a house, and it's going to cost them thousands or they lose the deal, they will pay. Even more likely when you tell them they can't dispute, and stonewall them on information on an unrecognized debt. Some debt collectors even run rackets based on routine nuisance postings.
"you cant get refunded by our company if your misinformed about the amounts, or fee, which never happens, because we dont make those mistakes"
You aren't that perfect. That is why when the pattern of complaints indicates you are both contacting the wrong people, and interfering with disputes, it says you are making errors in skip-tracing, compounded by validation compliance problems, so it is likely that you ARE making mistakes. The combination is likely to lead to defrauding people who don't owe you.
"What im adding is that your bank will refund you if some collection agency you dont know drafts money, but we arent allowed to draft more then we say, or before the day we agree on. "
That's what you are supposed to do, by law. Some debt collectors have a record of making "mistakes".
For example, consider TRS, when you realize that "try to collect on debts that have been paid." really means they run through ACH charges for already paid debts, http://www.myfloridalegal.com/lit_ec.nsf/inve ... 525768900511903
What they normally do to "try to collect" is resubmit a check via ACH. Similarly, when they make an account typo, they also make erroneous ACH charges to the wrong account. Their errors show up in their pattern of complaints.
"They dont just report things on your credit that you never had.. Unless some has stolen your Identity."
Probably false. It is unlikely you check for an existing original creditor posting before putting your own there. Most other debt collectors don't.
"But it says they paid $50 on the account back in 2008. Who opens an account under someones name then pays on it.."
Actually, this is commonly seen in two cases:
1) an earlier debt collector that wants to extend the statute of limitations, perhaps to try to sue past SOL, or to get more for selling a debt to you, and
2) some cases of id theft leading to opening fraudulent accounts, sometimes by a relative, but also by strangers who want to run up the account to a large amount before letting it default.
Such cases have shown up in analyses of id theft case data. The real question is usually why the original creditor opened the account in the first place, since there are usually multiple red flags.
As long as you think of records as "always accurate" you aren't thinking like an auditor or a thief, so you won't recognize either accidental "errors" or fraud even when you are staring at it. No records are more reliable than the people who created them, and when the companies are disrupted, by bankruptcies, mergers, downsizing, etc, then their records are disrupted and the original record keepers may not even be there.
"Wow you debtors have the worse excuses and logic."
The people who have been complaining about you here (or to BBB, for that matter) aren't "debtors". They are consistently complaining about your "mistakes". But when they report abuse or harassment, we may assume that even your correctly identified debtors are being subjected to the same treatment.
"Do you know how often I get people who claim they paid this debt, then 3 months later they pay it, because they dont have the proof? 99%."
When they claimed they paid it, they were disputing the debt. Did you obtain validation from the original creditor, or did you tell them THEY had to prove they didn't owe it, even as you withheld information? If the latter, then you deceived them into paying.
"All accounts have the persons name, DOB, SSN, Address, Phone#, Last payment date, charge off date, date it was listed, date we sent a notice."
Probably false, especially with telecom debt. Numerous complaints against other debt collectors regarding "debts" originating from several of the same original creditors you have mentioned indicate that account information is often incomplete.
In particular, old "Verizon" debt originating from their purchased companies (MCI, GTE, etc.) is often reported to be incomplete, mangled, or erroneous. In addition, there are many reports that Verizon has sold off both corrected billing errors and documented fraudulent accounts as "bad debts". It is unlikely that your data is miraculously more accurate than other debt collectors handling similar portfolios.
"Some of the accounts depending on the Debt buyer, will give you the credit card #, interest date, last scheduled payment, original amount, interest, whether you had cash advance on your credit card, and interest rates.."
And your should have provided this on any account a consumer disputed, not just some. If all you provide for validation was your own printout of creditor and amount, on an alleged debt disputed as "not mine", then your response would be deceptive.
Actually, there have been problems with some U.S. based debt collectors running up personal charges on credit cards provided by consumers.
As for con artists in India or Pakistan, it's a bit hard to convince a U.S. bank that some U.S. consumer has now moved to Pakistan, even if you do have a name, SSN and DOB.
"We aren't opening new accounts, we are closing out bills that weren't paid in the first place, and collecting money that was owed to a client."
No. But to the extent you act to interfere with validation, you allow con artists to blurr the distinction between legitimate debt collection and fraud, damaging your own industry's credibility. I have yet to hear a public service announcement from ACA informing consumers about their right to dispute debts or be free from harassment, and that people engaged in abusive collection may just be criminals.
"they send out a letter ever 2-3 months from the debt buyer and it has to be completed by a date, "
A verbal "settlement offer" is just debt collector BS if you don't document it in writing. If you do, you can afford to mail the offer, and get a check back to document acceptance. There is no downside to handling a business transaction in an orderly manner.
"if you send it in late it gets applied to your account and not settled out.. "
If a check is sent in response to a settlement offer, and marked as such, applying it to the full account balance when you have no intention to be bound by your own offer, is fraud.
"you just think all debtors are victims, there not.."
No. I just don't believe all victims are debtors. The FTC complaint rate against your industry has been rising at around 15% annual rates lately. That is a problem.
That's a lot of your problem right there.
"These debts have been in other agencies for 2-3 years before we get them"
That allows other agencies to make mistakes before you get it. The more transfers, the more likely there are errors, misidentification, misapplied payments, etc. On top of that, if the earlier agencies couldn't collect, odds are higher there was an error in the original account data.
"your know you owe the debt"
Actually, I don't. And most complaints against you on this site are that they don't either. You have problems simply stopping calls.
The complaints include that you are giving them the same BS as the arguments in your postings. And that is the problem. Your co-workers are telling consumers who dispute unowed debts the same BS you are.