RPM trying to collect a fake debt
Complaint
JP
Country: United States
On 4 Apr 08 I got a call from Receivables Performance Management (RPM) claiming that I owe $85 on a Verizon account from 2000. I know that I’ve never had a Verizon account, and that my phone account from 2000 (I forget which company) was paid properly. So I told the RPM rep that they were full of s**t, and that I wanted written proof that this debt is actually mine. They had the last 4 of my SSN and tried to pass that off as “proof” that their info was legitimate. I still didn’t fall for it and asked for everything in writing.
Fortunately I have records that go back that far. I also called Verizon to confirm that they don’t have any account information with my name on it. Surprisingly they have no record of me ever having an account with them. I then went online to find out if RPM is some sort of scam. They are a “legitimate” company, yet seem to be practicing what I would describe as predatory debt collection, or legal extortion. Unfortunately, there is not much information on the internet yet about RPM. However, there is a lot of information about AFNI, who seem to be doing the same thing.
So, after I found this web page, and read all of the information about AFNI, I downloaded the FDCPA and FCRA and read them. I’m sending RPM a letter in accordance with the FDCPA. I’m also sending the letter to my state’s AG and the WA state AG. (RPM is located in Bothell WA.) I also checked all of my credit reports to make sure that nothing has been placed on them. I’ll continue to monitor my credit reports very closely for the next few months. As this develops I’ll update this comment.
I’m considering contacting a lawyer to see if what RPM is doing is in any way actually extortion. It’s a crime that the max penalty under FDCPA and FCRA is only $1000 or actual damages. Obviously that small amount isn’t enough of an incentive to keep these companies from violating the law. I’m also going to contact my Congressmen about this. Maybe if enough of us complain the law can get changed?
Oh, and a huge thanks to the poster on this site TJ! His information and advice was invaluable!!
Fortunately I have records that go back that far. I also called Verizon to confirm that they don’t have any account information with my name on it. Surprisingly they have no record of me ever having an account with them. I then went online to find out if RPM is some sort of scam. They are a “legitimate” company, yet seem to be practicing what I would describe as predatory debt collection, or legal extortion. Unfortunately, there is not much information on the internet yet about RPM. However, there is a lot of information about AFNI, who seem to be doing the same thing.
So, after I found this web page, and read all of the information about AFNI, I downloaded the FDCPA and FCRA and read them. I’m sending RPM a letter in accordance with the FDCPA. I’m also sending the letter to my state’s AG and the WA state AG. (RPM is located in Bothell WA.) I also checked all of my credit reports to make sure that nothing has been placed on them. I’ll continue to monitor my credit reports very closely for the next few months. As this develops I’ll update this comment.
I’m considering contacting a lawyer to see if what RPM is doing is in any way actually extortion. It’s a crime that the max penalty under FDCPA and FCRA is only $1000 or actual damages. Obviously that small amount isn’t enough of an incentive to keep these companies from violating the law. I’m also going to contact my Congressmen about this. Maybe if enough of us complain the law can get changed?
Oh, and a huge thanks to the poster on this site TJ! His information and advice was invaluable!!
Comments
If it's for an address you never lived at, it may not even be YOUR debt. Lots of debt information gets mangled as it is passed from collection agency to collection agency, and just because you recognize the creditor, that does not mean that paying them will settle the debt you think you owe. It might be some other debt owed by someone else, in which case you have paid money for nothing.
They should have sent you a letter within 5 days notifying you of the debt, and that you could dispute it, regardless of what they said on the phone. Federal law (FDCPA) provides a process for disputing debts. There is no requirement that you have proof of anything to dispute.
The debt collector is required to contact the original creditor and verify and obtain proof of the debt, then send it to you. That allows many errors such as misidentification or errors in amount due to be resolved routinely. If you dispute within 30 days of receiving their first letter, then they must cease all collection activity until they obtain and send proof.
You should follow his lead and disputed it, in writing, mailed certified, return receipt requested.
Don't pay debts you can't confirm you owe. You will not only be poorer, but have someone else's bad credit on your credit reports.
How can this be lawful? our should I say.. it is the best interest of RPM and their clients to produce such data so that people who are being harrased can see what the hell they are talking about..
I am simply not going to pay something without 'proof'.
I then called RPM and did get a rep who did begin providing account numbers and more information. I then explain my issue with "Shawn Nix" and he transferred me to "Nina". I explained to "Nina" the situation where Shawn Nix did not provide any information and also would not provide his supervisor's name and his refusal to transfer me to a supervisor. She acted surprised and explain that this would be handled internally.
I am now supposed to receive emails which contain the supposed invoice and or account numbers.
So for those stating.. They have their job to do to.. The only explaination is that the last 3 people I spoke to at RPM withheld pertenant information and harrased me.
" I ask for a contract number or a description of what the service is for and I get nothing. "
Any business would require documentation of any amount for which payment is being demanded. It's not your job to just pay money to everyone who asks for it. You pay some totally unidentified "debt", there is nothing to stop someone from demanding the same thing again next year.
"I explained to "Shawn Nix" from RPM that our telecom vendors are Paetec and Qwest, and he then says that the invoice could be from MCI/Worldcom and they may own Paetec. "
"Could be" means she is now just making up BS. Her statements are now deceptive, intended to con you into paying without regard to whether you owe anything. She is trying to defraud you. It "could be" from Santa Clause. It also "could be" an old MCI fraudulent long distance account, as MCI was known for long distance slamming fraud before their takeover by Verizon in the Worldcom debacle. If so, it's a little late, since federal SOL on telecom debt is 2 years. It could be some other company's bill, maybe even one that went under, but they think your name is close enough so they can attempt to get you to pay, with "plausible deniability".
"Shawn then says that I am not being cooperative and explained to me that he is going to note that we refuse to pay."
That is what debt collectors commonly say to intimidate and belittle the average consumers they are used to harassing and abusing. It just means you are dealing with some arrogant bully used to pulling this cr*p on consumers to illegally evade their requests for validation. ANY business with decent accounts payable controls will refuse to pay unsubstantiated bills, otherwise they would be subject to fraud losses. It has no legal significance at all.
"He sites that I have been notified several times, and I reply that he can simply send me a copy of the invoice and or contract and I would be happy to review it."
Correct and professional answer. "Notification" from a debt collector isn't a substitute for sending a copy of the invoice from the original creditor, if it exists. It's no more than hearsay, and debt collection records often go through several collection agencies, and get mangled in the process.
The original creditor's invoice will identify the original customer name, billing address, date of services, what those services were, and the amounts, and who the actual original creditor was (not who it "could be") all of which would allow determination of whether the charges are valid, or whether they are really owed by someone else.
"He states that his company can ask their clients to produce invoice and/or contracts but they do not have to produce anything."
So why doesn't he do that, instead of still trying to avoid proving the debt? He's basically saying the alleged creditor might not prove it's really owed. That is his problem. You already know Verizon has told you they have no account under your company name.
"How can this be lawful?"
As an attempt to con you into paying a debt you probably don't owe, it basically skirts the edge of fraud. Problem is mainly that as an alleged business debt, FDCPA doesn't apply, so they play this intimidation shakedown game with relative impunity unless they get caught doing a lot of it and some state Attorney General goes after them.
Suing them is probably marginally effective due to costs, unless they screw with your D&B or the personal credit files of your owners if you are a small business. This sort of intimidation is probably most effective against consumers and small businesses, rather than larger companies.
"it is the best interest of RPM and their clients to produce such data so that people who are being harrased can see what the hell they are talking about.."
Seems obvious, but numerous complaints indicate they do otherwise.
"I am simply not going to pay something without 'proof'."
They must think the power of their personalities is all the "proof" anyone needs. It does require some care in hiring to get people who will believe this.
Which will "prove" exactly nothing.
" I then explain my issue with "Shawn Nix" and he transferred me to "Nina". I explained to "Nina" the situation where Shawn Nix did not provide any information and also would not provide his supervisor's name and his refusal to transfer me to a supervisor. She acted surprised and explain that this would be handled internally."
Whatever that means. How would they handle it "externally"? She probably did exactly what she was trained to do.
"I am now supposed to receive emails which contain the supposed invoice and or account numbers."
Again, what good are those? Even phone numbers alone would prove nothing, since anyone could look them up, and they don't identify the service and the time. Only a copy of the invoice itself, identifiable as coming from the original creditor, has any meaningful information. The rest is just someone else's unverifiable internal accounting system gibberish. Your own information, and Verizon's search, already put their whole story in doubt.
If Verizon isn't in your system, account numbers won't provide anything to trace. Without at least a date, you couldn't even go back into your old accounts payable records. You might ask Verizon what they mean, maybe they can provide an actual company name and service address, but if they are old MCI numbers, you will probably still get zilch. That's why SOLs exist. Still not your problem.
Their evasion of your request for legitimate validation of the alleged debt implies they know it is unlikely they can obtain any records to prove you owe it, or that it is not worth paying to get them. It may also mean they don't really know who owes this, and it isn't worth it to pay to find out it's not you.
http://phx.corporate-ir.net/phoenix.zhtml?c=190031&p=irol-irhome
MCI is a division of Verizon, formed when Verizon bought Worldcom (post-bankruptcy) in 2006.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MCI_Inc.
If Qwest was bought by Verizon, you would have heard about it, since there would be some major antitrust issues.
Just make up anything you might believe, and throw it at you. Bunch of liars.
I do not have bad credit, I do pay all of my bills and am not a Dead Beat as you called most of the people on here.. so get your facts straight and recognize that you and the company you work for are nothing but liars.
Since most consumers don't know how to handle these "mistakes", there is little chance they will be held responsible for the damage they cause, and a good chance they will be "accidentally" paid as well. How were they to know you were the wrong "John Smith"?
The level of complaints of "mistaken" collection against a small number of debt collectors is so high it defies credibility.
Send them a letter, mailed certified return receipt requested, disputing the alleged debt, and demanding that they obtain proof you owe it from the original creditor and send it to you. If sent within 30 days of receiving their first letter, under FDCPA they are required to cease all collection activity until they obtain and send proof.
Be wary of what "proof" they send, however, because even their own employees admit disputes often don't make any difference. If you have further problems, contact your state Attorney General and the Attorney General of the state of Washington for assistance.
You might also find an attorney with experience in consumer debt law, to sue under FDCPA or FCRA, both of which allow the court to award damages and your attorney fees if you win. You might try www.naca.net
#1 - I was never TOLD about any $12 fee and did not authorize it and it will be disputed.
#2 - I called CenturyLink and informed them that I will pay them directly on 9/15/2010, NOT the bozo collection company they use.
#3 - I can not find ANY information about Pennsylvania charging fees on payments made to collection companies.
Just note that my last bill paid to CenturyLink was the end of May - paid up to date - yet somehow, they send my next bill into collections by July 9th. Here, I tried to work it out and they screwed me. I should have stuck to my gut about these people.
The amount they are adding is unauthorized, so dispute it through your bank. Realize that your card information is now in the hands of a company that will just make up "fees" and take your money.
"#2 - I called CenturyLink and informed them that I will pay them directly on 9/15/2010, NOT the bozo collection company they use."
Why don't you also tell them you want them to return the fraudulent $12 charge stolen by their agent?
"#3 - I can not find ANY information about Pennsylvania charging fees on payments made to collection companies."
There isn't any.
He took your money without any authorization, and he lied about the "reason" why, in order to get you to believe his "fee" was somehow authorized by law, and not just theft. He knew otherwise, yet lied to you, so that indicates it is fraud, not just a "mistake". Report it to your state Attorney General, to the Pennsylvania Attorney General, to the Washington Attorney General, and to FTC.
And if you were already current, why are you paying them ANYTHING?
If it is not due until 9/15, why are they demanding payment before it is due? Who are these "CenturyLink" bozos, falsely claiming an amount is past due?
"He says they need a $25 good-faith payment NOW and the balance on 9/15/2010. "
Some "good faith". He just wanted to get your CC number, and as you can see, once they have it they can use it.
"Good faith" is also a common phrase in cons like the "pidgeon drop". It basically just means "your money is real, mine is fake, so gimme some of yours."
They told me they agree the amount wasn't "past due", but since they had to close my old account and open a new one, they consider the old one to be able to be turned in for collections, even immediately, though it wasn't overdue in any way. It all started because I switched to Vonage. When they turned my phone # into their system, it shut off the CenturyLink one, which also disconnected my internet... next day... I called CenturyLink and they turned on the internet immediately with a different line-in to the house... this supposedly caused the previous account to become "old" and "delinquent" overnight. But they say they can not pull that file from the collections company.
They can do anything they decide to do. They just have to want to decide not to do it to you. As it is, they have both decided it is a fun game to play chicken with your money and your credit, and they see no down side playing that game.
File a complaint with your state Attorney General for sending your account to a collection agency when it was not past due, and having them tack on extra fraudulent "fees" that they falsely claimed were required by the state of Pennsylvania. They basically just took a "$12 tax", that they lied about and claim you owed, that not only did not exist in law, but that they were not even going to forward to the state.
You could also sue RPM, for violating FDCPA, for deceptively both taking your money without authorization, and deceptively claiming it was owed. That violation was not undone even if you get your money back, as FDCPA is a strict liability law.
That is just fraud. It has nothing to do with "paying your bills".
Your industry is infested with people who just can't stop lying if it pays.
Customer service isn't always being "nice" - it also includes being intelligent, truthful and honest. Adding charges isn't honest - it's theft. Telling people you're an attorney, when you're not, isn't honest, it's misrepresentation. I could go on and on. Not ALL collections companies are like RPM. Unfortunately, it seems that many are.
You worms claim only ONE % are unlawfully harassed? HA! In CAMCO v. FTC it was shown EIGHTY % of the $$ collected was not even owed in the first place! CAMCO is out of business. Soon RPM will be. I for one will rejoice when Polus, George, and the rest of the hierarchy of RPM lose their precious homes in Holiday Park and Forest Estates!
When dealing with vipers, never grab the tail. The body can't hurt you, only the head.
Another tactic to punish these rat-[***] at RPM is to file a complaint against their attorney with the Washington State Bar Assn. Google their addy. Easy to find, easy to do. First write their attorney, Andrew Sullivan and provide him with a synopsis of the calls you are getting from RPM. Address it to the Legal Dept. at RPM. He works out of Seattle. Unless perhaps he's found a real job.
Don't roll over and play dead with these slugs. FIGHT! They are constantly being sued. As many as EIGHT lawsuits in one month! Make it 10, 20, even 30. File with the WA State AG. Your home State AG. Hell, file a complaint or send warning letter to every State AG in America telling them about this "company."
If the slugs on the phone make any threats? Nail their sorry butts. Some States permit taping conversations (incoming calls only) without telling the caller. If they threaten/intimidate you? Call your local PD. Then your State AG. And if they are clearly in violation of the law, as verified by your local PD? Ask them to contact the FBI! You do NOT have to put up with this vermin at RPM or for that matter, with any of these scoundrels at collection agencies.
TJ - thank you for your advice. I did file complaints with FTC, Washington State Atty Gen and PA State Atty Gen.
RPM has called twice since this incident yesterday, both times not even realizing ANY kind of payment was made on this situation, let alone a fraudulent one.