Karl ([***]) scammed our school on anti-bacterial towelette - kept sending us more and charging us - he would call and say we were getting a great deal??? ended up costing us $1500 and he had the nerve to call and try to get more $$ -- never do business with this company!!!!!!!
0
tj
The old "toner" and "office supply" scams have branched out into other overpriced disposables, including cleaning and medical supplies.
File complaints with the FTC, your state Attorney General, the California Attorney General, and the U.S. Postal Inspector.
0
Elvin Phillips
Seems like same old scam with us too. Some lying guy told me he would take us to court. I told him that his action would be in Tampa Hillsborough, Florida. Someone in CA should take them on in. I look forward to have him in Tampa any day any night. CA should go after them. It is criminal.
0
tj
File fraud complaints with FTC, the Florida Attorney General, the California Attorney General, and the U.S. Postal Inspector.
0
Mary Recendez
I have tired to return an order that the YMCA did not order and so far I have not succeeded. That company has been giving me the run around.
0
studio owner
Got a call in December 2009 from United Business Supply offering a deal with two HP toners plus one free for $99 each. Thought it was a good deal so placed an order. Items arrived. Sent off the coupon for the free toner. It arrived but was not HP, just some off-brand compatible toner. Got a call a few weeks later asking if we got our free toner. Didn't hear anything else from them until April 2010 when two off-brand toners arrived and a bill for $328 arrived unordered. Called Customer Service and told them we hadn"t ordered them. Was told that someone would call us back but no return call. June 2010 we recieve another bill in the mail stating that we owe $328 and that they will begin charging late fees if we don't pay up. Called them again and was told someone would call me. This time a fella called the next day. He said that my staff had ordered them the toner in December in the original order. Said something like the first shipment of 2 toners were the 1/2 of a 2 pack order and that the $99 each price was discounted because it was a special promotion for the bulk purchase. He then said that if I wanted to return the two toners in question, then I would have to pay the "full non-discounted price" of $149 for the two toners recieved in December and the "free" toner = $447! He then said my staff was not giving me the full story about the order and that they were aware of the terms. After agreeing to send me what he claimed was documentation of the acceptance of terms, he hung up on me!Some customer service! Oh.. the evidence he faxed .. it was the redeemed free coupon offer.
0
tj
File fraud complaints with FTC, your state Attorney General, the California Attorney General, and the U.S. Postal Inspector.
0
LJ
Marcy from United Supply just called our office, she hung up when I wouldn't answer "yes" to any of her questions about having a good weekend. Not going to be able to fabricate an "order". Never say Yes, or That's correct.
0
tj
They may still try to slip through some bogus invoice, concocted from just an employee name. When your are bluffing, you can be bluffing with nothing at all.
Report all fraud attempts to FTC, your state Attorney General, California Attorney General, and the U.S. Postal Inspector.
0
tj
You have no obligation to pay for or return unordered merchandise.
Demanding payment for unordered merchandise is mail fraud.
File a complaint with FTC, the California Attorney General, your state Attorney General, and the U.S. Postal Inspector.
Add another fraud complaint to their BBB statistics.
0
Dawn
Received a call from Jeremy at United Supply today. He tried to sound all smooth and said he was sending a new catalog for our copy machine. I always try to throw them threw a loop, so I asked him, "which one?". He replied "uhm... let me see here.." Click.. he hung up..lol. A co-worker of mine use to transfer them back and forth to each other disguising our voices, making them go through thier little speech and then transfer them over and over again. I really get a kick out of it when they call.
0
tj
That address is just a shipping and mailbox rental place.
If you want to find their current physical address, try contacting the city of Lancaster and see if they have a business license.
0
tj
Good one.
0
JS
Well at the very least, it's comforting to know that we're not the only ones being scammed by United Supply Source! I called the number on their fax and left them a voicemail letting them know that we will not pay for their invoice when we never ordered their toner.
tj - I've followed your advice with filing complaints with the US postal inspector, CA attorney general, the FTC and the Better Business Bureau. Thanks for posting the info! Hopefully, this will prompt them to void the invoice immediately.
Not sure what I'm going to do with their "very fancy" expensive toner, though . . . do I have to hang onto it for a specific amount of time before I throw it away?
0
tj
If you didn't order it, anything they send is a "gift". Their alternative is what it really is: a fraudulent invoicing scheme, aka "mail fraud".
If they ask, You might tell them you are holding it for 10 days, if they want to come pick it up at their trouble and expense. Don't lift a finger to help them, and certainly don't ship it back and expect them to reimburse you. Any other act on your part they are likely to twist into another false claim of an "order".
Otherwise, dispose of in accordance with local waste disposal laws.
0
js
Just thought I'd post the latest . . . We received a call tag today for the return of the unordered material! We're sending it back today and I'm praying that this will be the end of it. HOORAY!
Thanks again tj. I'm not sure how you became so expert on how to deal with scams like this, but I am really glad you posted your advice! It really helped a lot! THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU!!!! :)
0
tj
Don't be surprised if after returning it, they still try to squeeze a "restocking charge" out of you, or claim they "never got it", or it arrived "damaged". You didn't "order", so you aren't "restocking". It would still be fraud, so file the usual complaints, FTC, California Attorne General, your state Attorney General, U.S. Postal Inspector.
I just read a bunch of complaints, here and elsewhere, and noticed that the patterns were beginning to look much the same, fitting into a small number of categories. Legimate businesses work hard to clearly disclose terms, and to keep their customers happy, since their business succeeds on repeat business. Scammers run on finding enough new suckers to shear, keeping disclosures ambiguous so they can twist them into an overpriced claim while delivering junk, and use intimidation and threats to get paid. Scams are necessarily and deliberately constructed of components different from normal business practice involving willing merchants and customers, so when you find something out of order, look for a scam.
I looked into deception in general, particularly political and military intelligence analysis techniques, which have well developed theories of deception and counterdeception. I found that parts of their models fit commercial deception, frauds, and scams.
In particular, current doctrine on deception and counterdeception says that to effectively deceive, you have to control sources of information (denial and deception, "d&d"), and that although deception is generally a cheap tactic used in place of real strength against an adversary, if you overuse deception, it has a cost in credibility when your routine bluffing becomes widely known. Just like poker, if you know your adversary always bluffs, you know how to counter.
This is the weakness of much of this scamming, since they are set up to try to do the same thing to each victim. They depend on each "customer" not knowing what they are getting into, so they don't know when one apparently sloppy disclosure is going to be twisted into something entirely different. They also often hire cheap wage labor they have to deceive into believing what they are doing is legitimate, with "specialists" to handle the art of scamming the "problem customers".
The ability of the internet and search engines like Google to make complaint reports from many victims findable allows the common traits of all the complaints to be lined up revealing the common pattern of fraud. Numerous complaints from different sources over an extended time have high credibility even when anonymous, particularly against countering spin and lies from scammers.
Although individuals may be vulnerable to deception, attempts to control or distort the public perception generally fail, even blatant attempts to just smear someone under multiple aliases appear to be just what they are, and generally fail credibility, at least by these amateurs.
It is the independent reports, in different voices, with different details and points of view, through different forums and in different styles, but still outlining the same consistent details, that give a clear and credible picture of the outline of the scam, overcoming any doubt of deceptive and fraudulent intent.
Repeated consistent complaints, over months to years, overcome doubt that the company is set up to perpetrate the scam, rather than just some "mistake", or "bad apple" employee, since the company is receiving complaints similar to those posted, and if they can't clean up their act after months to years, it is only because they choose not to.
0
js
Wow! That's a whole lot of info! But it's great that you are sharing your vast knowledge with those of us who find ourselves on the wrong end of these deceitful order scams. We'll see if they try to juice us for a restock fee. You're absolutely correct in stating we aren't restocking, since we never ordered to begin with. Oh and an interesting note, they back-date their invoices and mail them after the 15 day "return period" elapses. It seems that every aspect of their pitch is just down right dirty!
People - please do as tj suggests by filing complaints . . . collectively, we can't be ignored.
0
tj
"they back-date their invoices and mail them after the 15 day "return period" elapses."
That is a common tactic in cramming scams, where either a fraudulent order, or the charges themselves, are forced on unwilling "customers". It is used to create the appearance that you could have returned it with no charge, but you failed to do so, so you are "liable" for their charges. Note that by design, all roads lead to "pay us" even when you never agreed. Common related tactics are to send the "terms" in an "information package", either with the order, or separately, but again designed to arrive after any "cancellation period. That is what deception is about, fabricating an alternate "reality".
Intimidation can be accomplished either by phone threats, or in mailed aggressive "past due" bills, threatening that the "account" is about to be sent to "collections". These often arrive long after a regular bill would be expected to have been received, creating the appearance that you "missed" the original invoice.
Or as part of phone intimidation, the scammer may claim to have a "recording" of your "authorization" or "verbal agreement". Such a recording may or may not exist, but the threat to use it can still be effectively used. With this type of scam where initial contact was by phone, edited, doctored, or misrepresented recordings are common.
The deception and intimidation is aimed at convincing you to pay unowed charges through creating the appearance of a legal obligation even when you know you never agreed to what they claim, then using threats of embarassment (and sometimes implied credit damage) to block the obvious actions like reporting to the police, DA, Attorney General, FTC, etc. The deception is aimed at creating the false appearance that you don't pay your bills, don't know what you agreed to, or even that you are the one committing fraud. When you see this is what they are routinely doing, however, you realize that filing fraud complaints is exactly what you must do, and that the authorities are actually very familiar with this or similar scams, having received MANY similar complaints.
This is why when you analyze deception, you don't just look at the various deceptions that may be part of a scam, but you map out their collective goal. What false perception are they trying to create? In other words, although of course the goal of any scam is to get your money for nothing, more specifically the goal of the various deceptive components may be to create confusion or uncertainty, to create the appearance of embarassment or a risk that you will not be believed if you contact the authorities or if fraudulent charges are disputed through your bank, to create distrust by an employer of whether employees might really have committed the company to some "contract", etc.
As examples of other cramming scams, look at the whole range of scams under "health & beauty". They are all basically constructed in the same way, but with the difference that since they are scamming consumers, they generally use teaser "free trial for only S&H" offers to get credit card or checking account info, then cram on inflated charges for basically worthless products with little cost justified by "authorization" hidden in fine print, while putting various barriers in the way of cancelling. They will often say that the automatic shipments can be cancelled by just contacting them, but in reality only blocking your credit card or closing your checking account will actually work. The websites are deceptively constructed to hide the existence of the "automatic shipment and billing" terms so that consumers will usually miss them, but so that they can still point to them when their charges are disputed.
By comparison, the small business scams ("office supply" and "business directory" scams are examples, but "web design" scams can be set up similarly) typically rely on vague telephone contacts later twisted into an alleged "verbal contract", followed by threats and intimidation, basically trying to use harassment to get some payment or "settlement" for an overpriced or worthless product, or even just a "cancellation fee" for nothing at all.
Comments
File complaints with the FTC, your state Attorney General, the California Attorney General, and the U.S. Postal Inspector.
Someone in CA should take them on in. I look forward to have him in Tampa any day any night. CA should go after them. It is criminal.
I have not succeeded. That company has been giving me the run around.
Not going to be able to fabricate an "order". Never say Yes, or That's correct.
Report all fraud attempts to FTC, your state Attorney General, California Attorney General, and the U.S. Postal Inspector.
Demanding payment for unordered merchandise is mail fraud.
File a complaint with FTC, the California Attorney General, your state Attorney General, and the U.S. Postal Inspector.
Add another fraud complaint to their BBB statistics.
http://www.americanpostnparcel.com/
tj - I've followed your advice with filing complaints with the US postal inspector, CA attorney general, the FTC and the Better Business Bureau. Thanks for posting the info! Hopefully, this will prompt them to void the invoice immediately.
Not sure what I'm going to do with their "very fancy" expensive toner, though . . . do I have to hang onto it for a specific amount of time before I throw it away?
If they ask, You might tell them you are holding it for 10 days, if they want to come pick it up at their trouble and expense. Don't lift a finger to help them, and certainly don't ship it back and expect them to reimburse you. Any other act on your part they are likely to twist into another false claim of an "order".
Otherwise, dispose of in accordance with local waste disposal laws.
Thanks again tj. I'm not sure how you became so expert on how to deal with scams like this, but I am really glad you posted your advice! It really helped a lot! THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU!!!! :)
I just read a bunch of complaints, here and elsewhere, and noticed that the patterns were beginning to look much the same, fitting into a small number of categories. Legimate businesses work hard to clearly disclose terms, and to keep their customers happy, since their business succeeds on repeat business. Scammers run on finding enough new suckers to shear, keeping disclosures ambiguous so they can twist them into an overpriced claim while delivering junk, and use intimidation and threats to get paid. Scams are necessarily and deliberately constructed of components different from normal business practice involving willing merchants and customers, so when you find something out of order, look for a scam.
I looked into deception in general, particularly political and military intelligence analysis techniques, which have well developed theories of deception and counterdeception. I found that parts of their models fit commercial deception, frauds, and scams.
In particular, current doctrine on deception and counterdeception says that to effectively deceive, you have to control sources of information (denial and deception, "d&d"), and that although deception is generally a cheap tactic used in place of real strength against an adversary, if you overuse deception, it has a cost in credibility when your routine bluffing becomes widely known. Just like poker, if you know your adversary always bluffs, you know how to counter.
This is the weakness of much of this scamming, since they are set up to try to do the same thing to each victim. They depend on each "customer" not knowing what they are getting into, so they don't know when one apparently sloppy disclosure is going to be twisted into something entirely different. They also often hire cheap wage labor they have to deceive into believing what they are doing is legitimate, with "specialists" to handle the art of scamming the "problem customers".
The ability of the internet and search engines like Google to make complaint reports from many victims findable allows the common traits of all the complaints to be lined up revealing the common pattern of fraud. Numerous complaints from different sources over an extended time have high credibility even when anonymous, particularly against countering spin and lies from scammers.
Although individuals may be vulnerable to deception, attempts to control or distort the public perception generally fail, even blatant attempts to just smear someone under multiple aliases appear to be just what they are, and generally fail credibility, at least by these amateurs.
It is the independent reports, in different voices, with different details and points of view, through different forums and in different styles, but still outlining the same consistent details, that give a clear and credible picture of the outline of the scam, overcoming any doubt of deceptive and fraudulent intent.
Repeated consistent complaints, over months to years, overcome doubt that the company is set up to perpetrate the scam, rather than just some "mistake", or "bad apple" employee, since the company is receiving complaints similar to those posted, and if they can't clean up their act after months to years, it is only because they choose not to.
We'll see if they try to juice us for a restock fee. You're absolutely correct in stating we aren't restocking, since we never ordered to begin with.
Oh and an interesting note, they back-date their invoices and mail them after the 15 day "return period" elapses. It seems that every aspect of their pitch is just down right dirty!
People - please do as tj suggests by filing complaints . . . collectively, we can't be ignored.
That is a common tactic in cramming scams, where either a fraudulent order, or the charges themselves, are forced on unwilling "customers". It is used to create the appearance that you could have returned it with no charge, but you failed to do so, so you are "liable" for their charges. Note that by design, all roads lead to "pay us" even when you never agreed. Common related tactics are to send the "terms" in an "information package", either with the order, or separately, but again designed to arrive after any "cancellation period. That is what deception is about, fabricating an alternate "reality".
Intimidation can be accomplished either by phone threats, or in mailed aggressive "past due" bills, threatening that the "account" is about to be sent to "collections". These often arrive long after a regular bill would be expected to have been received, creating the appearance that you "missed" the original invoice.
Or as part of phone intimidation, the scammer may claim to have a "recording" of your "authorization" or "verbal agreement". Such a recording may or may not exist, but the threat to use it can still be effectively used. With this type of scam where initial contact was by phone, edited, doctored, or misrepresented recordings are common.
The deception and intimidation is aimed at convincing you to pay unowed charges through creating the appearance of a legal obligation even when you know you never agreed to what they claim, then using threats of embarassment (and sometimes implied credit damage) to block the obvious actions like reporting to the police, DA, Attorney General, FTC, etc. The deception is aimed at creating the false appearance that you don't pay your bills, don't know what you agreed to, or even that you are the one committing fraud. When you see this is what they are routinely doing, however, you realize that filing fraud complaints is exactly what you must do, and that the authorities are actually very familiar with this or similar scams, having received MANY similar complaints.
This is why when you analyze deception, you don't just look at the various deceptions that may be part of a scam, but you map out their collective goal. What false perception are they trying to create? In other words, although of course the goal of any scam is to get your money for nothing, more specifically the goal of the various deceptive components may be to create confusion or uncertainty, to create the appearance of embarassment or a risk that you will not be believed if you contact the authorities or if fraudulent charges are disputed through your bank, to create distrust by an employer of whether employees might really have committed the company to some "contract", etc.
As examples of other cramming scams, look at the whole range of scams under "health & beauty". They are all basically constructed in the same way, but with the difference that since they are scamming consumers, they generally use teaser "free trial for only S&H" offers to get credit card or checking account info, then cram on inflated charges for basically worthless products with little cost justified by "authorization" hidden in fine print, while putting various barriers in the way of cancelling. They will often say that the automatic shipments can be cancelled by just contacting them, but in reality only blocking your credit card or closing your checking account will actually work. The websites are deceptively constructed to hide the existence of the "automatic shipment and billing" terms so that consumers will usually miss them, but so that they can still point to them when their charges are disputed.
By comparison, the small business scams ("office supply" and "business directory" scams are examples, but "web design" scams can be set up similarly) typically rely on vague telephone contacts later twisted into an alleged "verbal contract", followed by threats and intimidation, basically trying to use harassment to get some payment or "settlement" for an overpriced or worthless product, or even just a "cancellation fee" for nothing at all.